Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre as raid attackers (Full Analysis)

51 Min Read

TL;DR: Prioritize Groudon, after getting sufficient of each for Primal Vitality.

Key factors (TL;DR of TL;DR):

  • Each Primals are OP and virtually at all times the most effective counter when relevant.
  • Precipice Blades common Groudon is a HUGE enchancment from Earthquake, however Origin Pulse is a a lot smaller one from Surf.
  • Common Groudon and Kyogre are actually each the finest non-shadows of their sort, although Shadow Swampert (as Water) and Shadow Mamoswine are typically higher.
  • Groudon has manner extra utility than Kyogre in T5/Mega raids. It may be used to struggle in opposition to many extra bosses, though for a lot of of them, it’s worse than one other legendary.
  • Primal Groudon may even work nice as a Hearth– and Grass-type mega, and also can give XL boosts for all three sorts!

Groudon (non-primal):

  • Precipice Blades is 14% higher than Earthquake (one of many greatest modifications we’ve seen from signature strikes).
  • Higher than Garchomp and so on by a mile.
  • Groudon vs Shadow Mamoswine: S-Mamo is best more often than not, which incorporates most “conventional” use instances for Floor sorts. When it’s dangerous often, it’s actually dangerous, however then Groudon isn’t #1 counter both.
  • Even exterior of “should use Floor” instances, Precipice Blades (PB) Groudon is now no less than a nice Tier 1.5-2 counter in comparison with different sorts you should use, and does inside 5-10% of the #1 possibility.
    • Worse than: Terrakion, Reshiram, Shadow Machamp, Origin Pulse Kyogre, Metagross (shadow/common), Shadow Tyranitar
    • Much like: Lucario, Shadow Charizard, Rampardos
  • Will ultimately be outclassed by Shadow Garchomp/Excadrill, and Sandsear Storm Landorus-T if the transfer is nice.
  • I received’t essentially recommend 6 ETMs, however when you’re dying for one thing to make use of 6 ETMs on, Groudon may simply be it.
  • Primal Groudon can also be an awesome Hearth-type mega with unimaginable bulk and nonetheless nice uncooked energy. In group raids, it contributes much more harm than Mega Blaziken/Charizard Y.

Kyogre (non-primal):

  • Rating doesn’t change from the small 4% improve. Shadow Swampert continues to be higher.
  • Higher than Groudon when each can be utilized (anti-Hearth/Rock), although simply barely.
  • Nonetheless loads worse than Kartana and Metagross (shadow/common) in opposition to Floor and Rock, on common.
  • Underwhelming utility, not too many bosses to make use of Water in opposition to.
  • Whereas a number of future shadows (under Swampert) might outclass Kyogre, it doesn’t have a lot concern from non-shadows (apart from HC Inteleon tying it).

Maintain studying for:

  • Mega comparability plots for Floor, Water and Hearth sorts
  • Groudon vs. Shadow Mamoswine: Extra detailed breakdown
  • Kyogre and Groudon vs. their opponents
  • Floor-type rankings when it’s the most effective sort to make use of
  • Energy & Utility plots for all present “better of sort” attackers
  • Future Floor and Water attackers which will threaten Groudon and Kyogre
  • Primal Groudon’s room for enchancment as a Hearth sort


Throughout the weekend of Pokémon Go Tour: Hoenn International, on Saturday, February 25 and Sunday, February 26, Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon will likely be in “Tier 6” Primal Raids.

There are a couple of unlucky details concerning the raids themselves. Not solely are the extraordinarily arduous (Primal Groudon wants 4 gamers minimal, 6-7 to be secure; Primal Kyogre wants 5 gamers minimal, 7-8 to be secure), however you’ll doubtless want no less than 5-6 raids for every with a view to collect 400 Primal Vitality to evolve, except Niantic fixes the rewards on the final minute.

  • A silver lining is that they every increase 3 sorts for raid harm and (XL) candies. Primal Groudon boosts Floor, Hearth and Grass; Primal Kyogre boosts Water, Electrical and Bug.

However what occurs after you get them? Suppose you continue to have leftover raid passes (and time)… Which one do you have to raid extra when you primarily care about their utility as raid attackers? And the way typically do you have to count on to make use of them in raids, primal reversed or not? This text addresses all these questions.

It is a continuation from the partial evaluation I printed earlier than the Las Vegas catastrophe in-person tour. Essentially the most essential data had all been mentioned within the partial evaluation, however I’ll nonetheless point out the important thing factors right here, both in full or as TL;DRs. You probably have learn the partial evaluation, there are a couple of sections you could skip, and I’ll let you realize.

This text will likely be divided into the next components (many are copied from the partial evaluation, Elements 0, 2 & 5 is new, Half 1 has some updates):

  • Half 0: Stats of Primals and their signature strikes
  • Half 1: Primal and common Groudon as a Floor attacker
    • Mega comparisons; Groudon vs. Shadow Mamoswine; Groudon vs. Attackers of different sorts
  • Half 2: Primal Groudon as a Hearth and Grass attacker
  • Half 3: Primal and common Kyogre as a Water (and Electrical) attacker
    • Mega comparisons; Kyogre vs. Attackers of different sorts
  • Half 4: Utility of Groudon and Kyogre: Which one is used in opposition to extra raid bosses?
  • Half 5: Future issues
    • What can threaten or outclass them? How can Primal Groudon be improved as a Hearth sort?
  • Half 6: Verdict – Raiding and ETM choices

In case you’re on desktop and need to soar to a selected half, search “Half X”.

Now you can comply with me (@teban54) on Twitter!

Half 0: Stats of Primals, Origin Pulse and Precipice Blades

(Skippable within the curiosity of time)

Origin Pulse and Precipice Blades had their stats added to the Sport Grasp since 2018, or presumably earlier. They have been among the many earliest legendary signature strikes with stats added to GM, and the one ones that had their stats revealed manner earlier than launch.

  • (Unrelated: Even again in 2018, folks quickly realized they might ultimately be obtainable solely as raid-exclusive strikes, and most have been sad with it. Learn this and this for some dumpster fireplace.)

Within the 5 years that adopted, everybody saved repeating “these are speculative stats and could also be modified previous to launch”… But, the very same stats from 2018 ended up being utilized in 2023.

The 2018 stats have been already overpowered (OP) again then, albeit not as a lot because the starter CD strikes that instantly adopted. Even by 2023 requirements, they’re nonetheless OP (which reveals we haven’t gone too far with regards to OP strikes):

“Arceus Take a look at” for Origin Pulse and Precipice Blades, utilizing a typeless Arceus with Deal with, a mean quick transfer. Supply: GamePress DPS/TDO Spreadsheet.

Origin Pulse and Precipice Blades are most corresponding to strikes like Psystrike, Blast Burn, Fusion Flare and Brutal Swing. Nearly all strikes proven within the screenshot, presumably besides Shadow Ball, are thought of as traditional OP strikes.

Then again, stats for Primal Kyogre and Groudon themselves are new, and fully threw us off. As I defined here, as a substitute of a 9% nerf on their base stats transformed from MSG, which most field legendaries have acquired, the primals ended up getting a 3% nerf. This made them stronger than all predictions, with stats as follows:

  • Assault: 353
  • Protection: 268
  • HP/Stamina: 218

353 base assault is greater than virtually all Pokémon launched within the sport (besides Deoxys Assault and Mega Alakazam), and contemplating each assault and bulk, their uncooked stats are solely meaningfully outclassed by the unreleased Mega Mewtwo X/Y and Mega Rayquaza.

  • As for Kyogre’s and Groudon’s base kinds, 270 base assault with respectable bulk stays glorious as we speak, although they’re not as excellent for raids as they have been in 2018. A number of glassier attackers, resembling Kartana and Landorus-T, commerce some bulk for greater assault, making their base stats even higher suited as raid attackers. To not point out shadows.

What occurs if you mix god-tier base stats (on the Primals no less than) with OP signature strikes? Let’s see.

Half 1: Primal and common Groudon as a Floor attacker

You probably have learn the partial evaluation, soar to “Floor-type Mega Comparisons” or “Groudon vs. Shadow Mamoswine”. The primary part is copied instantly from the partial evaluation.

Floor attackers ranked by their common in-raid efficiency, utilizing ASE, ASE with dodging, and ASTTW.

See Appendix 1 (on the finish of this text) for technical particulars and easy methods to learn the charts. The Chandelure evaluation additionally accommodates explanations on ASE vs ASTTW.

  • Groudon


  • Groudon (Primal)


Primal Groudon (Mud Shot/Precipice Blades) is the most effective Floor attacker, interval. It’s even 30% forward of standard Groudon. With Precipice Blades, it’s even forward of future Mega Garchomp by fairly a margin (revisiting this later).

Precipice Blades is a HUGE improve on Groudon (14%). That is far larger than all upgrades introduced by legendary signature strikes that we’ve seen just lately (besides Terrakion).

  • Reshiram and Mewtwo acquired a 7% improve from their signature strikes. No legendaries have an enchancment between 7% and 14%.

Non-Primal Groudon with Precipice Blades is much like Shadow Mamoswine, and much above different non-shadows. Nonetheless, the chart above could also be deceptive, as we’ll see in simply two sections.

Facet notes (minor):

  • Shadow Golurk was manner overhyped. I do know, it has the very best DPS at the moment, nevertheless it has little or no bulk. In actuality, it finally ends up being much like Garchomp, often worse (though higher in opposition to Electrical).
  • You might suppose from the Estimator plot that Earth Energy Garchomp is forward of different non-legendaries and Landorus-T by some margin, except with dodging. Nonetheless, its benefit over Landorus-T largely come from beating Hearth-type bosses, and Garchomp is an arguably weak possibility for that anyway. I’ll point out this once more later.

Floor-type Mega Comparisons

Comparability of ground-type megas and primals, by way of harm as much as a hard and fast time-frame (relative to the no-mega baseline).

Did anybody actually count on something completely different?

Primal Groudon with Precipice Blades is fingers down the most effective Floor-type “mega”, each in solo efficiency and in harm boosting. Larger DPS than every thing else, and larger bulk than every thing besides Mega Steelix (lol).

RIP Mega Garchomp. (Mega Rayquaza getting solely a 3% nerf will give Mega Garchomp a run for its cash, too.)

Groudon vs. Shadow Mamoswine

[Section TL;DR] Shadow Mamoswine is principally higher. It performs the “conventional” responsibility of a Floor attacker higher than Groudon does. Aside from that, generally it does actually badly as a consequence of typing disadvantages, however then Groudon isn’t the highest counter both.

  • Groudon


  • Mamoswine (Shadow)


Shadow Mamoswine (Mud-Slap/Excessive Horsepower) has greater DPS and decrease bulk than Groudon, however its principal downside is a scientific typing drawback in opposition to sorts that you just count on a Floor attacker to counter. That is elaborated within the partial analysis (excerpt screenshot).

Seems, that is the only motive for Shadow Mamoswine’s “worse ASE than Groudon” above. A more in-depth look suggests in any other case:

Groudon vs. Shadow Mamoswine. Left are in opposition to all bosses that floor sorts can be utilized; Proper are in opposition to bosses the place floor is the most effective counter (electrics, double weaknesses, Tapu Koko).

Particular due to u/beaglechu for suggesting a revamp of the chart format.

This chart solely considers which one is higher, not “by how a lot”.

Wanting on the prime left chart, Shadow Mamoswine is best than Groudon a majority of the time (no less than 57%, as much as 80% by TTW and with dodging).

Not solely that, nevertheless it seems Groudon virtually solely “wins” if it has a typing benefit! From the underside left chart:

  • With out typing benefit (Hearth, Preventing, Rock, Metal), Groudon not often outperforms Shadow Mamoswine. (The sunshine-color bars)
  • Typing benefits occur ~43% of the time, largely in opposition to Hearth, Metal and Rock-type bosses.
  • After they do occur, Groudon typically has the next estimator, however Shadow Mamoswine nonetheless does higher in TTW or with dodging. This implies these situations are actually, actually dangerous for Shadow Mamoswine – no less than one further relobby, and generally even OHKOed. Yeah, that explains the decrease ASE.

A 3rd level that works in opposition to Groudon: When Floor attackers shine essentially the most, Shadow Mamoswine turns into straight up higher (besides in opposition to Heatran).

  • These instances largely embody: Mono electrical bosses; Bosses with double weak spot to floor; and Tapu Koko.
  • In these instances (charts to the fitting), Shadow Mamoswine is clearly higher. The 20% loss in estimator largely come from Heatran (and infrequently Nihilego).
  • Outdoors of those instances, Groudon could also be higher than Shadow Mamoswine, nevertheless it’s worse than one thing else (part under).

All issues thought of… I feel Shadow Mamoswine is simply higher as a Floor attacker. Groudon could also be extra constant, however not in a manner that’s significant sufficient.

It ought to be famous that the distinction isn’t large – usually 5%, or generally much less. In case you favor tanks or hate shadows, operating Groudon(s) is greater than completely high-quality.

Floor attackers, when Floor is the most effective sort to make use of (“Should use floor”)

(Skippable within the curiosity of time)

These plots are to elaborate on what I imply by “when Floor attackers shine essentially the most”. Their principal purpose is to point out that in these instances, Shadow Mamoswine certainly turns into higher than Groudon, by all metrics.

Floor attackers once they’re the most effective sort to make use of.

There are three principal lessons of raid bosses right here:

  1. Mono Electrical bosses, that are solely weak to Floor (e.g. Raikou, Xurkitree, Regieleki)
  2. Bosses with a double weak spot to Floor and no different sorts (e.g. Heatran, Nihilego)
  3. Electrical/Fairy bosses, that are solely weak to Floor and Poison (e.g. Tapu Koko)

Why single them out? These are if you’re “pressured” to make use of Floor attackers. Earlier than Precipice Blades Groudon, Floor sorts have been so weak that these have been the one instances if you would even contemplate them. Towards every thing else, they’re outclassed by different sorts, typically even by price range counters. Your complete sort then turned specialists in opposition to these few bosses, typically seeing low utility in raids.

Even Earth Energy Garchomp didn’t change that… However Precipice Blades Groudon (largely) did.

Facet observe: Discover how Garchomp loses its benefit over Landorus-T? They now tie in ASE, with Landorus-T even comes forward in ASTTW, and Excadrill can also be very comparable. Lots of these are Electrical bosses, and the distinction between triple resistance and single resistance merely isn’t that vast. While you resist an excessive amount of, it truly hurts your DPS with out the advantage of stopping a relobby – and I think that’s what’s taking place right here.

Groudon vs. attackers of different sorts

[Section TL;DR] Except you have to make use of Floor, Precipice Blades Groudon is usually nonetheless worse than different top-tier counters you should use, resembling Terrakion, Reshiram, Metagross and Origin Pulse Kyogre. Nonetheless, Groudon continues to be an awesome Tier 1.5-2 counter in these instances, with wider protection than any one in all them.

This part is shortened from the partial evaluation. Right here’s a screenshot of the complete model. Skippable when you’ve learn the partial evaluation, except you need to test 8 large ugly tables.

Groudon’s principal enemies are Water and Preventing, adopted by Hearth, Metal and Rock in some instances. Right here’s how (non-primal) Precipice Blades Groudon stacks up in opposition to these competitor sorts (holding in thoughts Shadow Mamoswine itself can also be a competitor).

  • I’ve additionally hooked up ASE/ASTTW tables if anybody is occupied with how different Floor attackers examine. (ASTTW is at all times the 2nd picture; even when labelled ASE, it’s truly ASTTW.)

  • Groudon


  • Kyogre


  • Swampert (Shadow)


Water: Barely worse than Origin Pulse Kyogre

  • Groudon


  • Lucario


  • Terrakion


  • Machamp (Shadow)


Preventing: Close to Lucario (higher estimator, comparable TTW)

  • Worse than Terrakion & Shadow Machamp
  • Higher than Conkeldurr & Machamp
  • Full tables

  • Groudon


  • Charizard (Shadow)


  • Reshiram


Hearth: Close to Shadow Charizard and Shadow Typhlosion (higher estimator, comparable TTW)

  • Worse than Fusion Flare Reshiram & shadow legendaries
  • Higher than Darmanitan, Chandelure, and so on
  • Full tables

  • Groudon


  • Metagross


  • Metagross (Shadow)


Metal: Worse than Metagross

  • Groudon


  • Rampardos


  • Tyranitar (Shadow)


Rock: Close to Rampardos (higher estimator, worse TTW)

  • Worse than Shadow Tyranitar
  • Higher than Rhyperior
  • Full tables

In each case, Groudon nonetheless can’t outperform prime counters of different sorts.


  • Groudon is now a Tier 1.5-2 counter in all instances.
  • It additionally has vast protection in opposition to many bosses, much more so than Preventing, Hearth and Metal.
  • To not overlook there are nonetheless the “should use Floor” instances.

For many who don’t have too many devoted top-tier groups constructed, favor to make use of distinctive counters, or get sunny climate increase loads, Groudon will seem in your raid squad very often. However when you went arduous on Terrakion, Reshiram and Shadow Machamp just lately, heavy investments in Groudon will not be too pressing for you.

One very last thing: Primal Groudon outperforms every thing else besides Primal Kyogre. That’s proper, it does higher than Mega Blaziken (when it may possibly use Precipice Blades).

Half 2: Primal Groudon as a Hearth (and Grass!) attacker

[Section TL;DR] Primal Groudon is an effective and hulking Hearth-type mega, and contributes essentially the most harm in group raids (greater than Mega Blaziken/Charizard Y). Whilst a “Grass” mega, it’s additionally serviceable. It may possibly additionally present XL sweet increase situationally in all three sorts!

Groudon (Primal)


Not solely does Primal Groudon turn out to be a Floor/Hearth-type Pokémon upon primal reversion, however in PoGO, it additionally gives harm and XL sweet boosts to Grass sorts as nicely. This offers Primal Groudon insane potential in double duties as a raid attacker and sweet booster, forming a “good triangle”:

  • As a Floor attacker in opposition to Hearth bosses, utilizing Precipice Blades (or Earthquake).
  • As a Hearth attacker in opposition to Grass bosses, utilizing Hearth Punch (or Hearth Blast).
  • As a Grass attacker in opposition to Floor bosses, utilizing Photo voltaic Beam.

Each will get you boosted XL sweet probability, gives a 30% harm increase to different gamers, and likewise allow you to deal Tremendous Efficient harm your self!

Despite the fact that Groudon lacks Hearth-type and Grass-type quick strikes, it seems that its ridiculous base stats means it’s no massive deal:

Primal Groudon as a Hearth attacker

Hearth attackers ranked by their common in-raid efficiency, utilizing ASE, ASE with dodging, and ASTTW.


  • Hearth Punch is the perfect charged transfer (in the meanwhile). Nonetheless, it’s a legacy transfer, and except you saved the one Groudon from a timed analysis in 2020, it has to return from an Elite Charged TM. The great factor is that Hearth Punch can also be a should for PvP.
  • Non-legacy Hearth Blast can also be serviceable with a minor efficiency dropoff. It additionally lets you TM to Photo voltaic Beam if wanted.
  • For quick strikes, Mud Shot is best if it’s not resisted (in opposition to Ice sorts), and Dragon Tail is best if Mud Shot is resisted (in opposition to Grass and Bug).

Efficiency: Really surprisingly good!

Even with no Hearth-type quick transfer, Primal Groudon already achieves solo efficiency a bit worse than Mega Houndoom. Whereas that’s the worst of any usable Hearth-type megas, it’s a very good Hearth attacker by itself, solely sitting persistently under Reshiram and shadow legendaries. (Overheat Reshiram is the closest comparability.)

However the place it stands out A LOT extra – maybe shockingly – is in group raids when it additionally boosts different gamers’ Hearth-type harm…

Hearth-type Mega Comparisons

Comparability of fire-type megas and primals, by way of harm as much as a hard and fast time-frame (relative to the no-mega baseline).

In group raids with no less than 2 different gamers utilizing Hearth sorts (i.e. 3+ participant lobbies), Primal Groudon turns into the most effective Hearth-type “mega” to make use of, contributing extra harm than even Mega Charizard Y and Mega Blaziken!

  • That is due to Primal Groudon’s insane bulk (lasts on the sector 75% longer than Mega Blaziken with no typing variations).
  • Additionally fascinating that with only one participant added, Mega Blaziken’s harm contribution falls off instantly from Mega Charizard Y.
  • Notice that these are extremely typing-dependent. Any mega with a typing benefit will do higher.

One factor that works in Mega Blaziken’s favor is in opposition to Ice– and Metal-type bosses, when you don’t know what others gamers will use. Mega Blaziken boosts each Hearth and Preventing, the most typical anti-Metal counters (see the underside proper plot). Nonetheless, it may possibly’t provide you with significant XL sweet boosts in contrast to Groudon.

  • (Primal Groudon additionally boosts each Hearth and Floor, however folks typically use Floor in opposition to Metal much less ceaselessly.)

Primal Groudon as a Grass attacker

I didn’t make any plots, as a result of it evaded my radar till the final minute. However don’t let that idiot you…

Photo voltaic Beam Primal Groudon ranks between Roserade and Chesnaught as a Grass attacker. Weaker than Mega Sceptile, Kartana and Mega Venusaur in uncooked energy, however completely viable!

  • What’s extra spectacular is that it did so with no Grass quick transfer, and with out STAB, and with a mediocre charged transfer.
  • Given its bulk improve from Mega Venusaur and Sceptile, I wouldn’t be shocked if Primal Groudon finally ends up being the most effective Grass-type mega in harm contribution for group raids. However have to test.

For quick transfer, once more use Mud Shot when it’s not resisted, or Dragon Tail in any other case.

Here are the complete simulation outcomes (ASE/ASTTW tables) if anybody is .

Half 3: Primal and common Kyogre as a Water (and Electrical?) attacker

You probably have learn the partial evaluation, you’ll be able to skip to Half 4, apart from the mega comparisons (with a trivial end result).

Water attackers ranked by their common in-raid efficiency, utilizing ASE, ASE with dodging, and ASTTW.

This part is shortened just a little bit from the partial evaluation. Right here’s a screenshot of the complete model.

  • Kyogre


  • Kyogre (Primal)


  • Swampert (Shadow)


Primal Kyogre (Waterfall/Origin Pulse) is the most effective Water attacker, interval. Nonetheless, its dominance isn’t almost as notable as Primal Groudon’s.

Sadly, non-primal Kyogre stays behind Shadow Swampert, even with Origin Pulse. It stays the most effective non-shadow non-mega Water attacker.

The important thing motive behind this seemingly underwhelming efficiency: Origin Pulse is not too OP – it’s a considerably small improve over Surf. 4% with out dodging, 6% with dodging.

  • I don’t suppose double transferring is definitely worth the stardust and candies for raids alone. Having each OP/Surf technically helps, however I’d be shocked if it makes >0.5% distinction.

Water-type Mega Comparisons

Comparability of water-type megas and primals, by way of harm as much as a hard and fast time-frame (relative to the no-mega baseline).

One more trivial comparability…

Primal Kyogre with Origin Pulse is the most effective Water-type “mega”, each in solo efficiency and in harm boosting. Larger DPS and larger bulk than every thing else.

After all, this doesn’t contemplate Mega Swampert’s utility in boosting XL candies in opposition to Floor-type bosses. And its efficiency can also be not too far off from Primal Kyogre’s.

Kyogre vs. attackers of different sorts

[Section TL;DR] Origin Pulse Kyogre is now finest non-shadow anti-Hearth, however Kartana and Metagross are nonetheless higher in opposition to Floor and Rock respectively.

This part is shortened just a little bit from the partial evaluation. Right here’s a screenshot of the complete model. Skippable when you’ve learn the partial evaluation, except you need to test 6 large ugly tables.

Right here’s how Origin Pulse Kyogre examine to its opponents. Additionally, don’t overlook Shadow Swampert itself is at all times a competitor, and does higher than listed under.

  • Kyogre


  • Zarude


  • Kartana


Grass: Similar to Zarude and shadows

  • A lot worse than Kartana
    • (Although clearly not when dealing with Hearth Blast Groudon)
  • Full tables

  • Kyogre


  • Groudon


Floor: Higher than all non-megas

  • Kyogre


  • Metagross


  • Metagross (Shadow)


Metal: Worse than Metagross

  • Kyogre


  • Tyranitar (Shadow)


Rock: Higher than all non-megas

  • Though simply barely forward of Shadow Tyranitar
  • Full tables

Kyogre is mostly the finest non-shadow non-mega counter in opposition to Hearth-type bosses. The issue is that in opposition to Floor (which is generally simply T5 Groudon), Kartana continues to be higher. And Metagross nonetheless guidelines in opposition to Rock.

Lastly, Primal Kyogre is the most effective counter in opposition to something it’s Tremendous Efficient in opposition to.

Kyogre as an Electrical attacker?

… Or not.

Primal Kyogre does increase Electrical sorts, so you should use it in opposition to a Water-type boss, increase different gamers’ Electrical harm, and get boosted XL candies.

Nonetheless, even operating Waterfall/Thunder, its particular person efficiency is horrible – manner worse than even Jolteon, and wouldn’t even seem on an Electrical-type attackers chart.

  • Primal Kyogre doesn’t work in addition to Primal Groudon right here due to quick transfer variations. Waterfall has manner under common power era, so more often than not you’re dealing resisted harm as a substitute of SE harm by way of Thunder. Mud Shot has glorious EPS, and even Dragon Tail has greater EPS than Waterfall.

You’ll be able to nonetheless use Primal Kyogre in raids for harm boosts, and given its bulk, I wouldn’t be shocked if it finally ends up contributing extra harm than Mega Ampharos and Mega Manectric in 6-person raids. However I have to test.

Half 4: Utility – Which one is used in opposition to extra bosses?

[Section TL;DR] Groudon is rather more helpful in T5 and Mega raids than Kyogre. It may be used to beat extra raid bosses, and though it’s not at all times the #1 counter, it’s nonetheless an awesome one. Kyogre, alternatively, lacks sufficient T5/Mega raid bosses for use in opposition to.

This is a crucial half that I feel shouldn’t be missed. Nonetheless, I’ve lined it in nice element within the partial evaluation. Subsequently, I’ll go away solely the important thing factors and plots right here. These ought to be ample, however curious readers might learn the partial evaluation for the complete textual content (or excerpt screenshot here), largely with a bit extra methodology rationalization and why we care.

In case you’ve already learn that, skip.

Utility of all sorts in T5 and mega raids. Numbers are the (tough) % of raid bosses every sort can be utilized in opposition to. Excludes launched megas and analysis mythicals (except they might come to Elite Raids).
Energy & Utility scores for the “finest” attacker of every sort (i.e. the one with the very best S&U rating)

Precipice Blades Groudon is certainly probably the most helpful Pokémon for raids.

  • Despite the fact that it’s not the #1 counter in opposition to every thing, it’s usually inside 5-10% of the #1, and the sheer variety of these use instances add up.
  • Nonetheless, when you do have 6 Terrakion/Shadow Machamp and 6 Reshiram, Groudon’s utility to you drops fairly a bit.

Then again, Water attackers like Origin Pulse Kyogre and Shadow Swampert have low utility for raids. There are merely not many T5/Mega raid bosses for Water for use in opposition to.

  • Sure, even decrease than Psychic, Flying and Fairy. The one two sorts strictly under it are Bug and Poison, which aren’t proven on this chart.
  • On this metric, Kyogre does endure from being worse than Shadow Swampert. However even when you take away all shadows, it’s largely the identical.

Despite the fact that Groudon could also be barely weaker than Kyogre when in direct competitors, the truth that it may be utilized in much more raids, to me, suggests it’s a transparent winner in funding precedence.

Half 5: Future issues

[Section TL;DR] A number of future shadows and Landorus-T might tie or outclass common Kyogre and Groudon. Their Primals will doubtless by no means be threatened.

On this half, we’ll have a look at future potentialities for 3 sorts:

  • Floor and Water: Can something dethrone Primal Groudon and Kyogre? What future Pokemon might outclass common Groudon and Kyogre, along with current shadows?
  • Hearth: How might Primal Groudon be improved as a Hearth attacker, if it ever will get extra fireplace strikes?

Future Floor-type attackers

Future and speculative Floor attackers ranked by ASE, ASE with dodging, and ASTTW.

  • Groudon (Primal)


  • Garchomp (Mega)


Nothing can ever contact Primal Groudon. Even Mega Garchomp falls quick (although the distinction isn’t evening and day).

  • Groudon


  • Garchomp (Shadow)


  • Excadrill (Shadow)


  • Landorus (Therian)


Common Groudon may be tied by Shadow Rhyperior, whereas Shadow Garchomp and Shadow Excadrill prone to outperform it, particularly the previous.

Moreover, Landorus Therian with a very good signature transfer (Sandsear Storm) is prone to outclass Groudon, although not by a lot.

Shadow Groudon is unlikely to be threatened by something that may be simulated in the meanwhile, and the one attainable competitor appears to be Shadow Landorus-T.

(Facet observe: A bunch of non-legendary Floor attackers can profit from Excessive Horsepower, much more so than Earth Energy. Nonetheless, none of them can overtake even Garchomp, to not point out Groudon.)

Future Water-type attackers

Future and speculative Water attackers ranked by ASE, ASE with dodging, and ASTTW.

Equally, nothing can ever contact Primal Kyogre.

  • Kyogre


  • Kingler (Shadow)


  • Empoleon (Shadow)


  • Samurott (Shadow)


  • Inteleon


Along with Shadow Swampert that’s already higher, Common Kyogre will face a number of future shadow threats: Kingler, Empoleon and Samurott. All three typically sit between Kyogre and Shadow Swampert (besides Shadow Kingler that dodges).

As for non-shadows, Hydro Cannon Inteleon (Gen 8 starter) will turn out to be equal to or higher than Kyogre. The glass cannon is even much like the abovementioned shadow Hydro Cannon starters, besides Swampert.

  • A couple of issues attempt to attain Kyogre stage, however fall quick: Greninja and Primarina with HC, Palkia with Waterfall (now doubtlessly authorized), and Urshifu Speedy Strike even with a very good signature transfer.

Shadow Kyogre is unlikely to be outclassed. Nonetheless, Shadow Palkia with Waterfall (and Shadow Gen 7/8 starters) might come shut.

Hearth: How can Primal Groudon be improved?

Speculative Hearth attackers ranked by ASE, ASE with dodging, and ASTTW.

  • Groudon (Primal)


  • Blaziken (Mega)


  • Charizard (Mega Y)


There are a number of Hearth-type strikes Groudon can doubtlessly be taught from the MSG: Hearth Fang and Incinerate for quick strikes, Overheat and Flamethrower for charged strikes.

The plots above present varied potentialities. There’s undoubtedly large potential for Primal Groudon as a Hearth sort!

  • Essentially the most excessive, Hearth Fang/Overheat, virtually ties Mega Blaziken in DPS whereas having 75% extra TDO.
  • Even a “minimal” enchancment of a single new transfer – quick or charged – lands it wherever from Reshiram to simply under Mega Blaziken/Charizard Y in efficiency.
  • Notice: With a Hearth quick transfer, Hearth Punch and Hearth Blast turn out to be almost interchangeable. I confirmed the most effective combo right here, however with each attainable quick strikes, the opposite charged transfer is extraordinarily shut.

A greater query is if this may occur, and the way quickly. Incinerate might find yourself having PvP implications, and whereas it might improve the possibility of it occurring, I’m undecided if that will likely be an excessive amount of for Grasp League. The opposite choices are safer for the ML meta, however that additionally means they’re much less doubtless.

Whether or not that’s definitely worth the FOMO, you determine.

Half 6: Verdict – Which one to goal for?

TL;DR: Get sufficient power for one in all every Primal, then do Groudon.

Skippable when you’ve learn the partial evaluation. This part is generally copied from there.

  • Groudon


  • Kyogre



  • Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre are the most effective Floor and Water attackers, and at all times the most effective counter.
  • Common Groudon with Precipice Blades is a large enchancment over Earthquake, a bit worse than Shadow Mamoswine in sensible situations, and much forward of different non-shadows.
  • Nonetheless, PB Groudon continues to be behind Terrakion, Reshiram and OP Kyogre when each can be utilized.
  • Common Kyogre with Origin Pulse is a a lot smaller improve from Surf, and nonetheless worse than Shadow Swampert (and Kartana typically).
  • Groudon’s utility in raids is way greater than Kyogre, as it may be used in opposition to far more bosses, and nonetheless does nice in opposition to them.
  • Primal Groudon may also be used as a Hearth and Grass attacker whereas giving XL boosts. It’s even the perfect Hearth-type mega in group raids for complete harm.
  • Along with the shadows that already outclass them, each could also be surpassed by much more shadows in future. For non-shadows, Groudon might find yourself being worse than Sandsear Storm Landorus-T ultimately, whereas Kyogre is way safer.
  • Even in PvP Grasp League, Groudon appears extra helpful than Kyogre.

Given their primals’ sturdy uncooked energy and nice XL boosting potential, getting sufficient power to “mega evolve” one in all every is a no brainer. However past that…

If simply selecting between Groudon and Kyogre, there are only a few explanation why you could go for Kyogre. Go Groudon.

  • I can see somebody prioritizing Kyogre in the event that they’re actually involved about beating Primal Groudon or T5 Groudon with Hearth Blast, however these are area of interest instances.

However how arduous ought to one go on Groudon? There’s no one-size-fits-all reply, however what I feel is: In case you grinded arduous for Shadow Mamoswine, Terrakion, Shadow Machamp and Reshiram, you’ll be able to chill out a bit. In any other case, Groudon is a well-above-average candidate.

  • In case you’re pondering very long run, the considered Landorus-T (which has greater base assault) may deter you from investing closely into Groudon in the meanwhile.

What about Elite TMs?

  • Groudon is the closest to “value 6 ETMs” that we’ve seen thus far… However I might nonetheless say no to six. Undoubtedly value one ETM given the ridiculous 14% enchancment, however causes I received’t recommend 6 are:
    • Shadow Mamoswine exists
    • Its uncooked energy continues to be decrease than its direct opponents (obtainable just lately with out ETM necessities)
    • Whereas there are a number of “should use Floor” instances, they’re nonetheless a bit area of interest
    • Future shadows and Landorus-T
  • Having mentioned that, when you have to choose one thing to spend 6 ETMs on, Groudon may simply be it. It’s undoubtedly a far more convincing case than something we’ve seen thus far.
  • Kyogre isn’t a prime candidate for an ETM, and I’m not even positive if it’s a 2nd-tier one. You are able to do it for PvP or in case you have a stockpile of ETMs, but when not, there are higher choices for ETMs earlier than it.

Articles developing subsequent

Nothing deliberate within the quick time period whereas we’re ready for subsequent season’s updates. Plus, I’m falling behind on work once more as a result of Groudon/Kyogre/Rayquaza articles, and I’ve my very own Hoenn Tour prep to do lol.

I’ve earlier talked about the opportunity of a poison-type evaluation, each as a Tapu Bulu counters information, and since it’s the one sort I’ve not lined. That doesn’t appear to have a lot curiosity, so don’t be shocked if it doesn’t occur.

Appendix 1: Information on easy methods to learn the charts & Technical particulars

Don’t know easy methods to learn the charts?

In case you’re completely misplaced, simply have a look at the primary two plots, or simply the primary one when you don’t dodge in raids. These two plots are primarily based on my Common Scaled Estimator (ASE) metric, which approximates in-raid efficiency utilizing Pokebattler Estimator, finest suited to lifelike shortmanning (2-5 raiders).

The Common Scaled Time to Win (ASTTW) plots are comparable, however finest suited to medium or massive lobbies (6+ raiders). This metric assumes no relobbying (i.e. reentering the raid in any case Pokemon fainted).

The ER (aka DPS3*TDO scaled) and DPS plots are for skilled gamers who need to test these metrics.

In all six plots, the upper, the higher. Instance: Primal Groudon is mostly higher than Groudon, which is best than Garchomp, in the event that they’re all on the similar Pokémon stage. However every thing listed is completely usable and can allow you to pull your weight in raids.

You can even examine completely different attackers at completely different ranges: factors on the identical horizontal line imply they’re equally nearly as good. Instance: Wanting on the “ASE no dodging” plot, A Degree 30 Groudon performs equally to Degree 40 Garchomp and Degree 45 Excadrill.

Reminder: All plots present common efficiency in opposition to many raid bosses. Towards a selected raid boss, the rankings may be completely different.

Technical particulars

  • The primary two plots are primarily based on my in-house Common Scaled Estimator (ASE) metric, which estimates in-raid efficiency by mechanically computing the common Pokebattler estimators in opposition to a wide range of T5, Mega and T3 raid bosses, scaled in order that the most effective attacker at L40 will get 1.0. The smaller, the higher. For extra particulars, check with my Venusaur analysis in January 2022 and the feedback.
  • The final plot makes use of Common Scaled Time to Win (ASTTW) comply with the identical methodology, however replaces Pokebattler estimator with TTW.
  • “ASE Dodge” makes use of simulations with the “Dodge Specials” + “Life like Dodging” choices on Pokebattler. You’ll be able to examine it to ASE with out dodging to see how a lot dodging helps an attacker.
    • For instance, Shadow Mamoswine’s ASE at Degree 40 drops from 1.356 with out dodging to 1.271 with dodging, so dodging typically helps Shadow Mamoswine’s efficiency.
    • Nonetheless, Garchomp’s L40 ASE rises from 1.449 to 1.459 with dodging, so dodging might harm Garchomp greater than it helps.

Appendix 2: Previous analyses on different sorts

  • Bug: Bug Out
  • Darkish/Ghost: Tyranitar CD Traditional
    • For Giratina-O comparisons: Shadow Drive Giratina-O
  • Dragon: Breaking Swipe Rayquaza
    • For full future attackers: Mega Salamence
  • Electrical: Reshiram & Zekrom with Fusion strikes
    • Mega Mewtwo Y (Thunderbolt) knowledge is flawed
    • For Xurkitree comparability: Bug Out
  • Fairy: Mega Gardevoir
  • Preventing: Shadow Mewtwo (Half 2 Terrakion part), with a couple of future and speculative attackers
    • For future megas: September replace (Mega Mewtwo X knowledge is flawed)
    • Additionally Galarian birds, Extremely Beasts & Sneasler
  • Hearth: Reshiram & Zekrom with Fusion strikes
    • Mega Mewtwo Y (Flamethroewer) knowledge is flawed
    • For full future attackers: Gen 3 mega starters
  • Flying: Staraptor CD
  • Grass: Gen 3 mega starters (with out Chesnaught in present attackers)
    • For full future attackers: Kartana
    • For Chesnaught-specific plots: Chesnaught CD
  • Floor: This text
  • Ice: Kyurem & Mega Glalie
    • Mega Mewtwo Y (Ice Beam) knowledge is flawed
  • Psychic: September replace/Psychic Spectacular
    • Mega Mewtwo knowledge is flawed
  • Rock: Tyranitar CD Traditional
    • For full future attackers: Gigalith CD
  • Metal: Mega Aggron
  • Water: This text
    • For full future attackers: Gen 3 mega starters

Lacking sorts: Poison

The put up Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre as raid attackers (Full Evaluation) appeared first on Pokémon GO Hub.

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