Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre as Raid Attackers

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At this time we check out Primal Groudon and Kyogre as Raid Attackers, we examine them to common Groudon and Kyogre, some standard options, and discover how your newly caught Primal Pokémon can contribute to your raiding workforce successfully.

It is a partial evaluation aimed toward Pokémon GO Tour: Hoenn – Las Vegas attendees, but it surely holds up as a normal evaluation as nicely. Extra to return following the Pokémon GO Hoenn Tour – International Occasion subsequent weekend.

TL;DR: Prioritize Groudon

Key factors (TL;DR of TL;DR):

  • Each Primals are OP and nearly all the time one of the best counter.
  • Precipice Blades common Groudon is a HUGE enchancment from Earthquake, however Origin Pulse is a a lot smaller one from Surf.
  • Common Groudon and Kyogre at the moment are each the finest non-shadows of their sort, although Shadow Swampert as Water is best (and Shadow Mamoswine is commonly higher too).
  • Groudon has method extra utility than Kyogre in T5/Mega raids. It may be used to battle in opposition to way more bosses, despite the fact that for a lot of of them, it’s worse than one other legendary.

Groudon (non-primal):

  • Precipice Blades is 14% higher than Earthquake (one of many largest adjustments we’ve seen from signature strikes).
  • Higher than Garchomp and many others by a mile.
  • Groudon vs Shadow Mamoswine: S-Mamo is best majority of the time, however when it’s dangerous, it’s actually dangerous. Nonetheless, within the “conventional” use instances for Floor sorts, Shadow Mamoswine is sweet.
  • Even exterior of “should use Floor” instances, PB Groudon is now no less than a nice Tier 1.5-2 counter in comparison with different sorts you need to use, and does inside 5-10% of the #1 choice.
    • Worse than: Terrakion, Reshiram, Shadow Machamp, Origin Pulse Kyogre, Metagross (shadow/common), Shadow Tyranitar
    • Much like: Lucario, Shadow Charizard, Rampardos
  • Will ultimately be outclassed by Shadow Garchomp/Excadrill, and probably by Sandsear Storm Landorus-T.

Kyogre (non-primal):

  • Rating doesn’t change from the small 4% improve. Shadow Swampert remains to be higher.
  • Higher than Groudon when each can be utilized (anti-Fireplace/Rock), although simply barely.
  • Nonetheless loads worse than Kartana and Metagross (shadow/common) in opposition to Floor and Rock, on common.
  • Underwhelming utility, not too many bosses to make use of Water in opposition to.


Alright, let me attempt to make this one fast (though I apparently failed).

The in-person Go Tour: Hoenn in Las Vegas has already began as of writing. I’ve been engaged on an evaluation, however positively gained’t have time to cowl every little thing I need to point out earlier than then. Therefore, this publish.

This text consists of all my progress to date, which is enough for Las Vegas attendees to take advantage of quick choices in the course of the occasion (e.g. which one to raid).

A full evaluation will probably be revealed earlier than the worldwide Hoenn Tour, with extra sections and extra explanations.

Primal and common Groudon as a Floor attacker

See this (Appendix 1) for technical particulars and learn how to learn the charts.

  • Groudon


  • Groudon (Primal)


Primal Groudon (Mud Shot/Precipice Blades) is one of the best Floor attacker, interval. It’s even 30% forward of standard Groudon. With Precipice Blades, it’s even forward of future Mega Garchomp by fairly a margin.

Precipice Blades is a HUGE improve on Groudon (14%). That is far better than all upgrades introduced by legendary signature strikes that we’ve seen not too long ago (besides Terrakion).

  • Reshiram and Mewtwo obtained a 7% improve from their signature strikes. Nothing between 7% and 14%.

Non-Primal Groudon with Precipice Blades is much like Shadow Mamoswine, and much above different non-shadows. Nonetheless, the chart above could also be deceptive…

Groudon vs. Shadow Mamoswine

[Section TL;DR] I believe Shadow Mamoswine remains to be higher. It performs the “conventional” responsibility of a Floor attacker higher than Groudon does. Aside from that, typically it does actually badly, however then Groudon isn’t the highest counter both.

  • Groudon


  • Mamoswine (Shadow)


Shadow Mamoswine (Mud-Slap/Excessive Horsepower) has increased DPS however decrease bulk than Precipice Blades Groudon. However extra detrimentally, Shadow Mamoswine has horrible typing as a Floor attacker:

  • Floor is tremendous efficient in opposition to: Electrical, Fireplace, Poison, Rock, Metal.
  • Attributable to its ice subtyping, Shadow Mamoswine is weak to Fireplace and Metal, and take impartial injury from Rock.
  • Groudon takes impartial injury from Fireplace and Metal, and resists Rock.
  • Many of those raid bosses conveniently have Combating-type strikes (e.g. Registeel, Regirock, Cobalion, Terrakion). Shadow Mamoswine is weak to them, however Groudon isn’t.

These points are sufficient to tug Shadow Mamoswine’s ASE beneath Groudon within the charts above, however a extra detailed look suggests in any other case:

The pie chart above solely considers which one is higher, not “by how a lot”.

I haven’t seemed into the precise instances but, however right here’s my guess:

  • Shadow Mamoswine is best than Groudon as a rule.
  • However within the 20-44% of instances the place Shadow Mamoswine is dangerous, it does actually, actually badly on account of typing disadvantages. (Probably Fireplace and Metal bosses with STAB strikes.)
  • These two elements drag down Shadow Mamoswine’s averages.


Within the “conventional” eventualities the place you need to use a Floor attacker (in opposition to Electrical, Heatran and Nihilego), Shadow Mamoswine turns into higher than Groudon on common.

In different phrases, in these eventualities the place Shadow Mamoswine does actually badly, very often Precipice Blades Groudon isn’t one of the best counter both. It is going to be outclassed by Origin Pulse Kyogre, Terrakion, and (Shadow) Metagross.

  • (In fact, in these conditions you’ll in all probability nonetheless discover a Groudon in your workforce, however the necessity of a Floor sort turns into a lot much less.)

If I have been to decide on one, I’d nonetheless decide Shadow Mamoswine. To not point out it could actually double responsibility as one of the best Ice attacker, whereas Groudon can’t pull any extra roles with out mega evolution primal reversion.

Groudon vs. attackers of different sorts

[Section TL;DR] Except you have to make use of floor, Precipice Blades Groudon is commonly nonetheless worse than different top-tier counters you need to use, resembling Terrakion, Reshiram, Metagross and Origin Pulse Kyogre. Nonetheless, Groudon remains to be an amazing Tier 1.5-2 counter in these instances, with wider protection than any certainly one of them.

Floor hits a big selection of sorts for Tremendous Efficient injury: Electrical, Fireplace, Poison, Rock, Metal. However earlier than Precipice Blades, Floor attackers have a lot decrease energy than different attackers you need to use, and are due to this fact seldom introduced out. Does Precipice Blades change that?

Let’s first have a look at what different sorts are in direct competitors with floor:

  • In opposition to Metal: Fireplace, Combating
  • In opposition to Fireplace: Water, Rock
  • In opposition to Rock: Metal, Combating, Water, Grass
  • In opposition to Poison: Psychic (this hardly ever occurs)

Groudon’s major enemies appear to be Water and Combating, adopted by Fireplace, Metal and Rock in some instances. Right here’s how (non-primal) Precipice Blades Groudon stacks up in opposition to these competitor sorts (protecting in thoughts Shadow Mamoswine itself can also be a competitor):

  • Groudon


  • Kyogre


  • Swampert (Shadow)


Water: Barely worse than Origin Pulse Kyogre

  • Additionally worse than Shadow Swampert
  • Plot later

  • Groudon


  • Lucario


  • Terrakion


  • Machamp (Shadow)


Combating: Close to Lucario (higher estimator, comparable TTW)

  • Worse than Terrakion & Shadow Machamp
  • Higher than Conkeldurr & Machamp

  • Groudon


  • Charizard (Shadow)


  • Reshiram


Fireplace: Close to Shadow Charizard and Shadow Typhlosion (higher estimator, comparable TTW)

  • Worse than Fusion Flare Reshiram & shadow legendaries
  • Higher than Darmanitan, Chandelure, and many others

  • Groudon


  • Metagross


  • Metagross (Shadow)


Metal: Worse than Metagross

  • Additionally worse than Shadow Metagross

  • Groudon


  • Rampardos


  • Tyranitar (Shadow)


Rock: Close to Rampardos (higher estimator, worse TTW)

  • Worse than Shadow Tyranitar
  • Higher than Rhyperior

Sadly, in each case, Groudon nonetheless can’t outperform prime counters of different sorts, thus unlikely to turn out to be the #1 counter (apart from “should use Floor” bosses).


  • Groudon is now a Tier 1.5-2 counter in all instances, not like solely being equal to funds attackers of different sorts.
  • It additionally has huge protection in opposition to many bosses, much more so than Combating, Fireplace and Metal.
  • To not overlook there are nonetheless the “should use Floor” instances (Raikou, Xurkitree, Heatran, Nihilego, Tapu Koko).

For individuals who don’t have too many devoted top-tier groups constructed, choose to make use of distinctive counters, or get sunny climate enhance loads, Groudon will seem in your raid squad very often. However when you went onerous on Terrakion, Reshiram and Shadow Machamp not too long ago, heavy investments in Groudon will not be too pressing for you.

One very last thing: Primal Groudon outperforms every little thing else besides Primal Kyogre. That’s proper, it does higher than Mega Blaziken.

Primal Kyogre

Primal and common Kyogre as a Water attacker

  • Kyogre


  • Kyogre (Primal)


  • Swampert (Shadow)


Primal Kyogre (Waterfall/Origin Pulse) is one of the best Water attacker, interval. Nonetheless, its dominance isn’t practically as notable as Primal Groudon’s. Mega Swampert is worse, however not by an excessive amount of (plus it may be an XL sweet booster in opposition to Floor bosses).

Sadly, non-primal Kyogre stays behind Shadow Swampert, even with Origin Pulse.

  • Dodging does nearly shut the hole, however whereas dodging improves Kyogre’s estimator, it’s nonetheless a penalty in TTW (that means the development comes from fainting much less).

The important thing cause behind this seemingly underwhelming efficiency: Origin Pulse is not OP – it’s a considerably small improve over Surf. 4% with out dodging, 6% with dodging.

  • That is much like Shadow Power Giratina-O. Not as dangerous as Zekrom (2%), however can’t examine to Reshiram (7%) and Groudon (14%).
  • Word that the simulations already account for sensible issues with 1-bar strikes, so that you don’t have to use a “low cost issue” your self.
  • I don’t assume double transferring is definitely worth the stardust and candies for raids alone. Having each OP/Surf technically helps, however I’d be stunned if it makes >0.5% distinction.

Kyogre vs. attackers of different sorts

[Section TL;DR] Origin Pulse Kyogre is now finest anti-Fireplace, however Kartana and Metagross are nonetheless higher in opposition to Floor and Rock respectively.

Water is Tremendous Efficient in opposition to: Fireplace, Floor and Rock. So its most distinguished rivals are Grass and Floor attackers, with some occasional competitors from Metal and Rock.

Right here’s how Origin Pulse Kyogre examine to those sorts. Word that OP Kyogre has very comparable energy to PB Groudon, so a few of these comparisons could look acquainted. Additionally, don’t overlook Shadow Swampert itself is all the time a competitor, and does higher than listed beneath.

  • Kyogre


  • Zarude


  • Kartana


Grass: Much like Zarude and shadows

  • A lot worse than Kartana
    • (Although clearly not when dealing with Fireplace Blast Groudon)

  • Kyogre


  • Groudon


Floor: Higher than all non-megas

  • Plot later

  • Kyogre


  • Metagross


  • Metagross (Shadow)


Metal: Worse than Metagross

  • Additionally worse than Shadow Metagross

  • Kyogre


  • Tyranitar (Shadow)


Rock: Higher than all non-megas

  • Though simply barely forward of Shadow Tyranitar

Kyogre stacks up a bit higher in opposition to different sorts than Groudon did: it’s typically the finest non-shadow non-mega counter in opposition to Fireplace-type bosses. The issue is that in opposition to Floor (which is generally simply T5 Groudon), Kartana remains to be higher. And Metagross nonetheless guidelines in opposition to Rock.

  • There are solely two “should use Water” instances on the horizon: Primal Groudon raids and Mega Camerupt raids. Although admittedly, the previous is a fairly large one.

The primary downside with Kyogre isn’t with energy, however with utility. Extra on this later.

Lastly, Primal Kyogre is one of the best counter in opposition to something it’s Tremendous Efficient in opposition to.

Floor vs. Water (as counters in opposition to Fireplace and Rock bosses)

That is principally for illustration functions:

Kyogre does carry out higher than Groudon in follow (on common) when each can be utilized, although the distinction is small. That is regardless of them having equal DPS and ER on paper.

FYI, discover how HC Swampert (and most different HC starters) does higher than all non-shadow non-legendary Floor sorts, even Garchomp. That’s why Floor was generally known as a weak sort.

Utility: Which one is used in opposition to extra bosses?

[Section TL;DR] Groudon is way more helpful in T5 and Mega raids than Kyogre. It may be used to beat extra raid bosses, and despite the fact that it’s not alway the #1 counter, it’s nonetheless an amazing one. Kyogre, alternatively, lacks sufficient T5/Mega raid bosses for use in opposition to.

Thus far, our dialogue solely targeted on energy of (Primal and common) Kyogre and Groudon. However when making such hefty investments in raid passes, stardust and (uncommon/XL) candies is utility: Which one is used extra ceaselessly, in order that my funding can “repay” extra usually?

On this facet, the distinction between Groudon and Kyogre is night time and day.

Floor sort itself is already usable in opposition to far more T5 and Mega raid bosses than water. In my “Sort Utility” metric, Floor is among the most helpful sorts when disregarding energy, whereas Water is among the least helpful:

Utility of every type in T5 and mega raids. Numbers are the (tough) % of raid bosses every sort can be utilized in opposition to. Excludes launched megas and analysis mythicals (until they might come to Elite Raids).

(Word this doesn’t contemplate the energy of particular person attackers. Extra dialogue here, the place an identical evaluation was carried out by u/mcmillan789.)

As talked about earlier, despite the fact that Floor can be utilized in 26.2% of T5 and mega raids, very often it’s not one of the best counter. Nonetheless, even when we account for each energy and utility, Groudon stays very helpful, whereas Kyogre nonetheless has a lot decrease sensible use:

Energy & Utility scores for the “finest” attacker of every sort (i.e. the one with the best S&U rating)

The “Energy & Utility” metric was first proposed in my Shadow Mewtwo evaluation Half 2. Briefly, it seems at every raid boss, offers a rating of 1 to one of the best counter, and assign scores between 0 and 1 to different counters primarily based on how a lot worse they’re.

  • The horizontal axis (x-axis) is a cutoff level for the way a lot you care about “not #1” counters. To the intense left, solely the #1 counter in opposition to every boss will get scores, and every little thing else will get 0. To the intense proper, every attacker will get one thing if it’s inside 50% of the highest counter.
  • That is nonetheless experimental, and additional fine-tuning is required.

This metric exhibits Precipice Blades Groudon is certainly one of the crucial helpful Pokemon for raids.

  • Despite the fact that it’s not the #1 counter in opposition to every little thing, it’s usually inside 5-10% of the #1, and the sheer variety of these use instances add up.
  • Nonetheless, when you do have 6 Terrakion/Shadow Machamp and 6 Reshiram, Groudon’s utility to you drops fairly a bit.
  • The identical applies to Shadow Mamoswine as a Floor sort (comparable curve however flatter).
  • “Should use Floor“: Raikou, Xurkitree, Regieleki, Heatran, Nihilego, Mega Manectric, “Tapu Koko”

However, Water attackers like Origin Pulse Kyogre and Shadow Swampert have low utility for raids. There are merely not many T5/Mega raid bosses for Water for use in opposition to.

  • Sure, even decrease than Psychic, Flying and Fairy. The one two sorts strictly beneath it are Bug and Poison, which aren’t proven on this chart.
  • On this metric, Kyogre does endure from being worse than Shadow Swampert. However even when you take away all shadows, it’s largely the identical.
  • “Should use Water“: Primal Groudon, Mega Camerupt

Despite the fact that Groudon could also be barely weaker than Kyogre when in direct competitors, the truth that it may be utilized in much more raids, to me, suggests it’s a transparent winner in funding precedence.

XL Sweet Boosting?

TL;DR: The final 4 bullet factors.

I don’t need to make this the main focus of my articles, despite the fact that that’s apparently the primary cause individuals use mega evolutions these days. However on this case, it does deserve greater than only a point out.

Primal Groudon and Kyogre have a novel sort boosting mechanic. They every enhance three sorts:

  • Primal Groudon boosts: Floor, Fireplace, Grass (the categories that get sunny climate enhance)
  • Primal Kyogre boosts: Water, Electrical, Bug (the categories that get wet climate enhance)

(The kind-specific boosts embrace injury enhance in raids, additional candies when catching wild spawns, and additional XL sweet likelihood when catching wild spawns and raid bosses.)

This, along with their movesets, permit each primals to operate concurrently as a raid attacker (additionally boosting different gamers’ injury) and a sweet booster in sure eventualities:

  • Primal Groudon in opposition to Fireplace, as a Floor attacker
  • Primal Groudon in opposition to Grass, as a Fireplace attacker (utilizing Fireplace Punch or Fireplace Blast)
  • Primal Groudon in opposition to Floor, as a Grass attacker (utilizing Photo voltaic Beam)
  • Primal Kyogre in opposition to Water, as an Electrical attacker (utilizing Thunder)

It stays to be seen how good they’re within the final three instances. If I’ve time, I’ll point out them within the full article subsequent week.

Verdict: Which one to intention for?

TL;DR: Get sufficient vitality for certainly one of every Primal, then do Groudon.

  • Groudon


  • Kyogre



  • Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre are one of the best Floor and Water attackers, and all the time one of the best counter.
  • Common Groudon with Precipice Blades is an enormous enchancment over Earthquake, much like Shadow Mamoswine (although the latter might be higher), and is way forward of different non-shadows.
  • Nonetheless, PB Groudon remains to be behind Terrakion, Reshiram and OP Kyogre when each can be utilized.
  • Common Kyogre with Origin Pulse is a a lot smaller improve from Surf, and nonetheless worse than Shadow Swampert (and Kartana typically).
  • Groudon’s utility in raids is far increased than Kyogre, as it may be used in opposition to far more bosses, and nonetheless does nice in opposition to them.
  • Even in PvP Grasp League, Groudon appears extra helpful than Kyogre.

Given their primals’ robust uncooked energy and nice XL boosting potential, getting sufficient vitality to “mega evolve” certainly one of every is a no brainer. However past that…

If simply selecting between Groudon and Kyogre, there are only a few explanation why you might go for Kyogre. Go Groudon.

  • I can see somebody prioritizing Kyogre in the event that they’re actually involved about beating Primal Groudon or T5 Groudon with Fireplace Blast, however these are area of interest instances.

However how onerous ought to one go on Groudon? There’s no one-size-fits-all reply, however what I believe is: For those who grinded onerous for Terrakion, Shadow Machamp and Reshiram, you possibly can loosen up a bit. In any other case, Groudon is a well-above-average candidate.

Understand that future Shadow Garchomp and Shadow Excadrill will probably overtake PB Groudon, and Landorus (Therian) has an opportunity of outclassing Groudon sooner or later with its signature transfer, Sandsear Storm. Though it’s unlikely to overhaul Groudon by too a lot.

What about Elite TMs?

  • Groudon is the closest to “value 6 ETMs” that we’ve seen to date… However I could nonetheless say no to six. Undoubtedly value one ETM given the ridiculous 14% enchancment, however what’s stopping myself from 6 is the truth that its uncooked energy remains to be decrease than its direct rivals (obtainable not too long ago with out ETM necessities), and whereas there are a number of “should use Floor” instances, they’re nonetheless a bit area of interest. To not point out future shadows and Landorus-T.
  • Having mentioned that, when you have to choose one thing to spend 6 ETMs on, Groudon may simply be it. It’s positively a far more convincing case than something we’ve seen to date.
  • Kyogre isn’t a prime candidate for an ETM, and I’m not even positive if it’s a 2nd-tier one. You are able to do it for PvP or when you have a stockpile of ETMs, but when not, there are higher choices for ETMs earlier than it.

Articles arising

I’ll take a detour and concentrate on Breaking Swipe Rayquaza in the intervening time, since it can come earlier than the worldwide Hoenn Tour. As soon as that’s carried out, I’ll end up the remainder of the Primals evaluation.Tentative extra matters for the total Primal article:

  • Primal Groudon as a fireplace sort
  • Future issues – what could threaten them, how Primal Groudon as a fireplace sort will be improved
  • Extra plots: Mega plots; Floor sorts within the “conventional” instances solely; and, if there’s demand, plots of floor vs different sorts

The publish Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre as Raid Attackers appeared first on Pokémon GO Hub.

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